Determining consumption in nominal dollars
This question goes to the practical matter in the future of using ESP to fund consumption and other expenditures, as well as being sure we are on track with various income streams. I understand that all outputs are given in real dollars. It nicely illustrates "smoothing". However, when I bring out my checkbook in 2017 to pay some bill, I will be writing a check in nominal, not real dollars. Is there a way within ESP to get back to nominal dollars for its outputs?
Thanks all,
RSS
nbranch at fairpoint.net wrote:This question goes to the practical matter in the future of using ESP to fund consumption and other expenditures, as well as being sure we are on track with various income streams. I understand that all outputs are given in real dollars. It nicely illustrates "smoothing". However, when I bring out my checkbook in 2017 to pay some bill, I will be writing a check in nominal, not real dollars. Is there a way within ESP to get back to nominal dollars for its outputs?
Thanks all,
No. The program will never produce output in nominal dollars. You can [manually] convert the contents of the Excel spreadsheets to nominal dollars by multiplying by the appropriate CPI for the given year, but we won't do that for you.
Best,
Dick Munroe
Ok, thats a " to the point "answer. I guess I am missing something quite basic then. How should I be using the software to guide real world decisiions in the future?
Thanks for your patience.
Perhaps you should think of things this way: the reason that the program provides you with real rather than nominal dollars in the future is so that you'll know what these future numbers mean according to your present perspective. Or put it differently, in the present, a nominal and a real dollar is the same. In 2017, a nominal and a real dollar will be the same from the perspective of 2017. You don't want to convert these real dollars back to nominal dollars now, for that would be to eliminate the erosion that inflation will have on those dollars. If you have your assumptions set to 3% inflation, then you are already adjusting those future dollars to account for inflation--and if inflation does turn out to be 3%, then your actual spending power will be just what the program says it will be. So your practical planning issues will thus be properly accounted for. If you overestimate inflation's rise, then you'll be planning conservatively, and if you set inflation to say 1% or some unrealistically low number, then you'll end up with less spending power than the program indicates at that setting.
So I think you are just confusing the future and the present a bit. Perhaps you are just thinking too hard about it. For planning, you can set your inflation at the historical average, but then you can run scenarios with it up at 4 or 5 or 6 percent if you want to see that impact on your checkbook in the year 2017. In this way you can adjust so that when 2017 gets here, you'll have the purchasing power that ESPlanner said you would have--given all assumptions are correct.
I hope that helps some.
Dan
Dan,
Thanks for your considered response. I have left the two default inflation assumptions in tact and understand your points about real and nomilal dollars being equal in the present and the utility of nominal dollars for a consistant view of purchasing power going forward. I am still unclear how to use the program for guidance as to how many real dollars I will need to allocate in 2017 to achieve the recommended consumption expressed in nominal dollars. I suppose running the program in 2017 will give me the answer then, but not predictively.
Still think I am missing something basic here as no one else is expressing similar concerns.
OK, let me take a stab at that for you too.
Think of the "bottom line" that you are solving for with this program as household "consumption" (also expressed equivalently as scaled to per-person living standard if you have spouse or children).
What you are trying to do here is discover what is your available per-person living standard. So the first time you enter your data and run the program, you see the column per-person living standard and you take note both of its level in dollars, but also whether it is smooth or not. Then you can begin to manipulate variables (if they are something you can manipulate such as retire early, retire late, take SS late/early, sell some asset, contribute more to a 401(k), etc.). You then are looking to see the impact of these many, many decisions upon your living standard--both in terms of how how it is, but also the shape of the line over time. Most of us prefer it to be smooth, or moving upward rather than rich now, starve later or starve now, rich later.
So that's the big picture of what you are doing. And I suspect you already "got" all of that. Sorry for running on.
So to finally get to your question: how many real dollars I will need to allocate in 2017 to achieve the recommended consumption expressed in nominal dollars. I suppose running the program in 2017 will give me the answer then, but not predictively.
You can see the Recommended table and see that your living standard is relatively stable from now down through the years--or perhaps if you are younger, you see the standard going up? And the Saving column shows how much to save (or withdraw) in today's dollars each year in order to achieve that standard of living. Of course it's complicated by your retirement saving, earnings, etc. But you see, what you are shown here is more like a trajectory into the future. All kinds of things could happen between now and then, but you'll be making adjustments along the way. If you get a huge raise beyond what you told ESPlanner in future earnings, you'll plug that in and create a new set of trajectories. But given what you know now and given that it comes to pass, then you know how your economy will play out and how the myriad of variables interact to provide you with a stable living standard.
Perhaps the kernel of your question is in the term "allocate." I'm not sure what that means. The program is showing you what is available after taxes, housing, etc. It's showing how much to save or de-save in today's dollars. If it says to de-save 2000.00 in the year 2017, who cares how much that will be in nominal dollars on that date really. That is, why bother with the conversion? For if you have estimated inflation correctly, it will feel like 2000.00 in today's dollars and most importantly, it will be there for you to withdraw if your other variables are accurate. I suppose it might be interesting to know what that will be in future nominal dollars, but it's just a curiosity really. Most people would only understand the meaning of a dollar in terms of what a dollar means today.
Again, I hope this helps. I know that there are a lot of concepts to adjust to in a program like this--but it's worth the effort!
Dan
royerd at gvsu.edu wrote:So to finally get to your question: how many real dollars I will need to allocate in 2017 to achieve the recommended consumption expressed in nominal dollars. I suppose running the program in 2017 will give me the answer then, but not predictively.
Dan,
I think you've got that backwards. I interpret the question as how many real dollars in 2017 (nominal dollars in 2008) will I need to sustain the living standard given in 2008 real dollars?
That answer is simple:
2017 real dollars = 2008 real dollars * (1.03 ** 9)
Where .03 is the inflation rate and 9 is the number of years from 2008 to 2017.
The difference is that they both represent identical purchasing power but they are [substantially] different numbers.
You can think of it as if a 2008 dollar can buy you a loaf of bread. In 2017, a 2017 dollar can buy you about 3/4 of a loaf of bread (all other things being equal). So, in 2017 you need about 1/3 more real, 2017 dollars to have the same buying power as you do in 2008.
Look at your plan results. If you aren't saving/investing at least the recommended amount this year, you're behind the power curve. Plan on saving/investing "amount" * 1.03 next year (to account for inflation). But when you run esplanner in 2009 you'll get another number (close to, but not identical with) amount * 1.03 which is the number you should be saving that year (in real 2009 dollars). Every year plan on saving/investing amount * 1.03 next year. Every year run esplanner with updated data and adjust your plan appropriately.
Best,
Dick Munroe
I understand your point, and as I think about it your recommendation that I run the program each year to determine what to do one year ahead is what we will do as a practical matter. The equation I was looking for was current real dollars converted to future nominal dollars, but as you imply, we won't really know until we get there.
Thanks for helping.
nbranch at fairpoint.net wrote:I understand your point, and as I think about it your recommendation that I run the program each year to determine what to do one year ahead is what we will do as a practical matter. The equation I was looking for was current real dollars converted to future nominal dollars, but as you imply, we won't really know until we get there.
Thanks for helping.
But you do know [approximately]. The conversion from real to nominal is simply to multiply by the product series of the inflation rate (assuming constant inflation):
2017 nominal dollars = 2008 nominal dollars * (1.03 ** 9) (nine years of 3% inflation)
In 2017 those will be real dollars, in 2008 they are nominal dollars.
Best,
Dick Munroe
Just for the record or the the help of those looking at this thread. This calculator will do the work for you if you want to convert.
http://www.hellodollar.com/archives/2005/10/inflation_calcu.html
I was also confused on this same point. Your discussion really helped to clear the air. Well explained.
Thanks Dick
Just as a minor point, theoretically we could include inflation as a state variable in monte carlo but at a substantial cost in run time. Clearly constant inflation is an approximation to reality and (as you can see from the last couple of years) not necessarily a good one, but all simulators make assumptions and this one isn't a bad one since it is the historical inflation rate.
Best,
Dick Munroe
I have a planning program from Quicken that allows you to select nominal or inflated dollars in the calculation. That allows you to visualize the difference, and illustrates the concepts discussed above. Unfortunately, this is a straight line program. By that I mean, it takes your assumption of investment return and projects it straight line, rather than using a Monte Carlo calculation. However, when ESP first came out the results came out close enough to to each other to reinforce my confidence level in ESP. Now my Quicken program has become dated, due to lack of updating for IRS changes, etc., and it is no longer available from Quicken. Even at that, it gets in the ball park...depending on your assumptions. But doesn't it always come down to that. We never know what the future holds, and that is what puts the apprehension into retirement and retirement planning.
Good luck.